Transcript of Proceedings - January 23 2025

Filed: 02/21/2025 09:17:44 Fourth Judicial District, Ada County Trent Tripple, Clerk of the Court
By: Deputy Clerk-Bourne, Pamela
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE FOURTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF THE
STATE OF IDAHO, IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ADA

STATE OF IDAHO,)

) Plaintiff,) ) V.) Case No: CR01-24-31665 )
BRYAN C. KOHBERGER,)

Defendants.)

TRANSCRIPT OF REDACTED PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE STEVEN HIPPLER

January 23, 2025
9:00 Α.Μ.

CERTIFIED TRANSCRIPT

Page: 1 175
Stenographer: Christie Valcich, CSR-RPR

1 APPEARANCES

2
3 FOR THE STATE:

4 William W. Thompson, Jr.

5 Ashley Jennings Latah County Prosecutor's Office 6 Latah County Courthouse 522 S. Adams Street, Suite 211 7 Moscow, Idaho 83843 8 Jeffery D. Nye 9 Office of the Attorney General 700 W. Jefferson Street 10 Boise, Idaho 83720 11
12 FOR THE DEFENDANT:

13 Anne C. Taylor 14 Anne Taylor Law, PLLC P.O. Box 2347 15 Coeur d'Alene, Idaho 83816 16 Jay W. Logsdon 17 First District Public Defender Idaho State Public Defender 18 1450 Northwest Boulevard Coeur d'Alene, Idaho 83814 19 20 Elisa G. Massoth, PLLC Attorney at Law 21 P.O. Box 1003 Payette, Idaho 83[REDACTED:CREDIT_CARD_NUMBER]1 INDEX

2
DEFENSE WITNESSES: PAGE

3
4 DET. BRETT PAYNE

5 Direct Examination By Ms. Taylor 7 6 Cross-Examination By Ms. Jennings 32 7 Redirect Examination By Ms. Taylor 34 8
9 RYLENE NOWLIN

10 Direct Examination By Ms. Taylor 37 11 Cross-Examination By Mr. Nye 70 12 Redirect Examination By Ms. Taylor 78 13
14 MATTHEW GAMETTE

15 Direct Examination By Ms. Taylor 84 16
17 DANIEL HELLWIG

18 Direct Examination By Ms. Taylor 113 19 Cross-Examination By Mr. Nye 130 20 Redirect Examination By Ms. Taylor 137 21
22 LEAH LARKIN

23 Direct Examination By Ms. Taylor 141 24 Cross-Examination By Mr. Nye 160 25 3

1 THURSDAY, JANUARY 23, 2025

2 BOISE, IDAHO

3 * * * 4 5 (Closed proceedings.) 6 THE COURT: Let's go on the record in State v.

7 Kohberger, CR01-24-31665. Present in the courtroom 8 today are the defendant with counsel, Ms. Taylor and 9 Ms. Massoth. Is Mr. Logsdon here?

10 MS. TAYLOR: Mr. Logsdon is here, Your Honor.

11 THE COURT: For the State we have Mr. Thompson, 12 Mr. Nye, and Ms. Jennings.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, Your Honor.

14 THE COURT: We have a number of people in the 15 courtroom. Are they all part of counsel team or 16 witnesses that are to be called today?

17 MS. TAYLOR: Both, Your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Outside of those two categories, 19 that's everybody?

20 MS. TAYLOR: Everybody here is a consultant or 21 witness. I'm not quite sure who's on the prosecutor's 22 side.

23 MR. THOMPSON: Ms. Allen is from the Attorney 24 General's Office, and Ms. Workman is our victim-witness 25 coordinator.

4

1 THE COURT: All right. Before we get going 2 this morning, I understand the first portion of today's 3 hearing will be to put on evidence related to the IGG 4 suppression and Franks issue.

5 In terms of witnesses, what are we 6 doing in terms of excluding and / or exceptions to 7 exclude based on experts?

8 MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, the parties have 9 stipulated that the witnesses may be inside the 10 courtroom for the entirety of the proceeding. The State 11 has their witness that's a remote witness, and that's 12 fine for that person to listen in.

13 THE COURT: So that person is appearing 14 remotely?

15 MR. NYE: Yes, Your Honor, that's correct.

16 THE COURT: Do we have them up?

17 THE CLERK: They are not connected.

18 THE COURT: They are not connected. Did you 19 give them a link? Did you ask for a link?

20 MR. NYE: Yeah, they let us know they received 21 the link. But we're okay getting started, Your Honor.

22 He doesn't need to be here.

23 THE COURT: I was told by my law clerk that 24 Defense intends to refer to exhibits that they don't 25 have copies here today for the Court.

5

1 MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, there was a 2 stipulation that all of the exhibits that were attached 3 to the IGG motion and the Franks motion would be 4 admitted. I'm happy to give the Court my copies. That 5 was about a thousand pages worth of stuff, so I did not 6 print and haul down an extra copy, but I'm happy to give 7 the Court my copy if the Court wants a hard copy.

8 THE COURT: I've got a copy in the file. The 9 only problem is trying to find what you're talking about 10 quickly if you're referring to a distinct item within 11 that. Typically I'm provided copies of the specific 12 exhibits witnesses go over. I'll do my best but...

13 MS. TAYLOR: I'm happy to provide the Court my 14 copy or use the Elmo so the Court can see the display.

15 THE COURT: All right. We'll do what we can.

16 In the future, if you know what exhibits you're going to 17 be talking about in particular, you should have two 18 copies available for the Court.

19 MS. TAYLOR: I will, Your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Anything to take up before we get 21 started?

22 MR. NYE: No, Your Honor. I don't believe so.

23 MS. TAYLOR: I don't believe so, either. Thank 24 you.

25 THE COURT: All right. The Defense may call 6

1 its first witness.

2 MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, the Defense would call 3 Brett Payne.

4 THE COURT: Just to make sure, we're not live, 5 right, Sandra?

6 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly swear or affirm the 7 testimony you're about to give now before the Court is 8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

9 DET. CPL. PAYNE: I do.

10 THE CLERK: Thank you.

11 MS. TAYLOR: May I approach the podium, 12 Your Honor?

13 THE COURT: Yes, please.

14
15 DETECTIVE CPL. BRETT PAYNE,

16 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
17
18 DIRECT EXAMINATION

19 BY MS. TAYLOR:

20 2. Good morning.

21 A. Good morning, ma'am.

22 Ω. Will you state your full name, please?

23 A. Brett Payne.

24 2. How is your last name spelled?

25 A. P-A - Y-N - E.

7

1 2. What do you do for a living?

2 A. I'm the Detective Corporal at Moscow PD 3 currently.

4 2. How long have you been at Moscow Police 5 Department?

6 A. Almost seven years now.

7 2. Prior to Moscow Police Department, did 8 you have law enforcement experience?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 2. What was that?

11 A. I was in the Military Police Corps, the 12 U.S. Army, for three years prior to coming to Moscow
13 PD.

14 Ω. Are you POST certified?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 2. In the course of your responsibilities 17 with Moscow Police, were you handling an investigation 18 involving homicides at 1122 King Road?

19 A. Yes, ma'am.

20 2. What was your role?

21 A. I was assigned lead detective after 22 about the first 24 hours in that case.

23 Ω. And does that mean that you have 24 responsibility for the case and evidence?

25 A. Yes, ma'am.

8

1 2. Okay. As such, did you participate in 2 a search for a suspect?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 2. And when was the first time you heard 5 Bryan Kohberger's name?

6 A. The first time I heard Bryan 7 Kohberger's name was December 19, 2022.

8 2. And what was that a result of?

9 A. That was a result of investigative 10 genetic genealogy that was being undertaken by the 11 FBI. We had a phone call that evening, and we were 12 told Bryan Kohberger's name.

13 2. And before that, Mr. Kohberger was not 14 on your radar?

15 A. No, ma'am.

16 2. Before December 19th, was the FBI CAST 17 team member collocated with you?

18 A. Yes, ma'am.

19 Ω. How long had he been collocated with 20 you?

21 A. I don't remember exactly, but it had 22 been several weeks at that point.

23 Ω. And was that Nicholas Ballance?

24 A. Yes, ma'am.

25 Ω. What other FBI team members were 9

1 collocated with you?

2 A. Goodness. A lot. We had Technical 3 Assistant Maria Tyndall, SA Jacobson, and numerous 4 other FBI special agents that were there to assist.

5 2. By the time it was December 19th and 6 you first heard of Bryan Kohberger's name, had you 7 reviewed videotapes?

8 A. Yes, ma'am.

9 2. How many hours of videotapes do you 10 think you reviewed?

11 A. I don't remember. A lot. I can't give 12 you an accurate representation.

13 2. In those videotapes, did you focus in 14 on any particular ones that were of interest to you?

15 A. Yes, ma'am. In particular would be 16 the-are you talking about addresses that were 17 how would you like me to refer to them?

18 2. How you nicknamed the cameras.

19 A. So the first one was from 1112 King 20 Road. It was a surveillance camera, an exterior 21 surveillance camera on a house that was immediately to 22 the northeast of 1122 King Road. There was some 23 footage from a Linda Lane camera, I forget the address 24 off the top of my head. There was footage from the 25 A & W, which is at the corner of Lauder and South Main, 10

1 or Highway 95. There was footage from an address on 2 Indian Hills. There was also footage from a Ridge 3 Road camera. And that's how we referred to them was 4 basically by those names.

5 2. With those references in mind and 6 keeping December 19th in mind, which of those cameras 7 were your focus before you learned of Bryan 8 Kohberger's name?

9 A. I would say all of them were of 10 importance before that.

11 Ω. And it was later that other cameras 12 became important; is that right?

13 A. Those were the main ones we relied upon 14 for vehicles, in particular, is what those ones were.

15 Ω. I'm going to return to that in just a 16 minute, but I want to talk to you about interviews.

17 Did you interview any people in 18 relation to the case before December 19th?

19 A. Yes, ma'am.

20 2. And did other officers interview 21 people?

22 A. Yes, ma'am.

23 Ω. Were some of those people the roommates 24 of the people at 1122 King?

25 A. Yes, ma'am.

11

1 2. Did you review other officers ' work, as 2 well?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 2. Did you have regular meetings with 5 other officers about the status of the investigation?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 2. Did you have any role in deciding to 8 pursue investigative genetic genealogy?

9 A. Yes, ma'am. It was a collaborative 10 decision amongst the command team to go that route, 11 but, yes, I was a part of that.

12 2. Were you part of the discussions during 13 the process of the identification?

14 A. Yes, ma'am.

15 Ω. Were you aware that Othram Laboratories 16 began the work on the investigative genetic genealogy?

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Ω. What kinds of information did you 19 receive from Othram Laboratories?

20 A. I don't remember what was received from 21 Othram directly. I knew they were conducting their 22 specific type of work. I don't remember exactly what 23 they provided to us.

24 2. Did you receive some documents from 25 them?

12

1 A. Yes, ma'am.

2 2. Okay. Do you know how many documents 3 you received from them?

4 A. I do not.

5 2. Was it one time or more than one time?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 2. Were you part of the discussion to take 8 the work from Othram and go to the FBI?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 2. Why was that decision made?

11 A. From my understanding granted, this 12 is my first encounter with investigative genetic 13 genealogy, so, again, as a collaborative discussion we 14 decided that because the Idaho State Police Lab and 15 Othram had essentially exhausted their resources 16 this is how I understood it -- that we would move to 17 the FBI because they had more resources available to 18 pursue this particular avenue.

19 Ω. Do you know what more resources the FBI 20 had?

21 A. The only thing I'm privy to was that 22 they had more databases that they could compare the 23 sample to. That was the extent of my knowledge.

24 Ω. Do you have familiarity with the 25 databases and the rules that apply to those?

13

1 A. No, ma'am.

2 2. I'll save those questions.

3 What was your communications with the 4 FBI about the IGG?

5 A. So our communications were just via 6 telephone. The sample was sent to the FBI I don't 7 remember the date it was given over to them but 8 after that there was very few conversations; and if 9 they happened at all, they were just telephonic 10 advising us that the process was still in the works 11 and they would let us know when or if they had 12 anything of interest for us.

13 2. Do you know what files or documents 14 went to the FBI from Othram?

15 A. I do not remember.

16 2. Did you receive documents from the FBI?

17 A. In relation to IGG?

18 Ω. Yes.

19 A. I believe after the fact, after we 20 received Kohberger's name, we did receive documents, 21 but I don't remember what they were.

22 2. Do you know how many documents related 23 to IGG you received from the FBI?

24 A. No, ma'am. I believe as part of 25 discovery it was in the thousands of pages, but that's 14

1 the best of my knowledge.

2 2. Thank you for that.

3 All right. So once you have 4 Mr. Kohberger identified, what's your understanding of 5 what that meant to have his name?

6 A. Just in relation to the overall 7 investigation, is that 8 2. Yes.

9 A. So the only thing that was given to us 10 was Bryan Kohberger's name; that was it. It was 11 conveyed to us by the FBI that it was to be taken as 12 no more than a tip; that was it. So once we received 13 his name, we set about doing basically an independent 14 verification of whether or not he was involved in this 15 crime.

16 2. I'm going to talk to you about that a 17 little bit more, but do you know why the FBI connected 18 Bryan Kohberger to the case?

19 A. So December 20th, if memory serves, we 20 had a secondary meeting with the FBI via Teams, if 21 memory serves, and they simply walked us through the 22 family tree, how they did that. Now, I don't remember 23 the details of all that it was an in-depth 24 conversation that, to be honest, is above my head 25 but they essentially worked their way through the 15

1 family tree and arrived at a conclusion that Bryan 2 Kohberger was a person we should look into as a tip.

3 That's the extent of my knowledge of how they did 4 that.

5 2. How was Bryan Kohberger, the name you 6 received as a tip, linked to the case?

7 A. He wasn't until after December 19th.

8 2. What item of evidence did they link 9 Bryan Kohberger to?

10 A. I'm not sure what you're asking. As 11 far as before December 19th, is that what you're 12 referring to?

13 2. Yeah.

14 A. We didn't have one at that point.

15 Ω. Why did you become interested in 16 learning the identity of Bryan Kohberger?

17 A. Not quite sure I understand your 18 question. We were interested in anyone who would have 19 been involved in this. The DNA from the knife sheath 20 was obviously the one thing we had that we thought was 21 a very strong piece of evidence in this case, so it 22 was that particular piece that we pursued as a 23 potential avenue of identifying a suspect.

24 2. Is it your understanding that the FBI's 25 work said that it was Bryan Kohberger's DNA on the 16

1 sheath?

2 A. That is not my understanding.

3 2. What is your understanding?

4 A. My understanding is that the FBI 5 concluded that Bryan Kohberger was a possible source 6 of DNA that we should look into. They did not, to my 7 knowledge, at any point say Bryan Kohberger's DNA is 8 on the knife sheath. That was never conveyed to me.

9 2. On December 20th when that happened, 10 when he's somebody you should look into, what did you 11 do?

12 A. We had already started looking into him 13 from the previous evening. So that day, 14 December 20th, we began going through basically our 15 sort of standard investigative procedures that we had 16 been doing throughout the investigation for various 17 leads, to include basic DMV searches, NCIC offline 18 returns, NCIC searches. We have a database called 19 TLO, which is a credit-based search we use to find 20 basic information. So we started doing all those 21 things looking for information on Mr. Kohberger.

22 Ω. And what you found is that he didn't 23 have a criminal history; is that right?

24 A. Correct.

25 Ω. Talk to me about going to Pennsylvania 17

1 for the trash pull.

2 A. Well, I was not in Pennsylvania for the 3 trash pull.

4 2. I'll ask somebody else that later.

5 All right. So after you received Bryan 6 Kohberger's name and he hasn't been on your radar 7 at all before; is that right?

8 A. Correct.

9 2. All right. You had pursued interviews 10 and surveillance video. Had you pursued evidence 11 found inside the scene at 1122 King?

12 A. Yes, ma'am.

13 2. What efforts did you make to pursue 14 Unknown Male B?

15 A. You have to be more specific. I don't 16 remember exactly where Unknown Male B came from.

17 2. If I told you the lab report showed 18 Unknown Male B came from a blood spot on the handrail 19 going between the second and the first floor, does 20 that help jog your memory?

21 A. Yes, ma'am.

22 Ω. Why did you not pursue that person?

23 A. At that point in time, we had already 24 received Mr. Kohberger's name, and from what my 25 understanding was, entering another DNA profile into 18

1 CODIS would remove the previous one we had from the 2 knife sheath. So if memory serves, the discussion was 3 we'll hold off, we'll stay with the one from the knife 4 sheath; if we need to, we can address the Unknown 5 Male B at a later time.

6 Ω. I want to make sure I understand your 7 testimony. Were you not aware of Unknown Male B until 8 after December 19th when you knew Bryan Kohberger's 9 name?

10 A. No, ma'am. I was aware of that before, 11 yes.

12 2. How about Unknown Male D?

13 A. Again, you're going to have to be more 14 specific.

15 Ω. If I told you Unknown Male D came from 16 a lab report from a sample of blood on some gloves 17 outside the house, does that refresh your memory?

18 A. Yes, ma'am, it does.

19 Ω. You're aware of that too?

20 A. Yes, ma'am.

21 2. I want to back up and talk about the 22 affidavits. I think you told me in a prior hearing 23 that you were the person that wrote Exhibit A, or the 24 affidavit in support of the search warrants, when it 25 came to looking for things about Bryan Kohberger. Did 19

1 I understand that right?

2 A. Yes, ma'am.

3 2. And that affidavit, when you began, was 4 that on about December 23rd to get records?

5 A. As far as when I started writing the 6 affidavit, is that what you're referring to?

7 2. The first search warrant that applied 8 to Bryan Kohberger.

9 A. I believe it was December 23rd, yes.

10 2. When did you begin writing that 11 affidavit?

12 A. I began writing that affidavit long 13 before that. It had been a running affidavit because 14 at the beginning of it, there's the walk-through of 15 the crime scene, there's numerous things. It was a 16 living document, so we'd just add information to it.

17 I'd say that document started I don't know, 18 couldn't give an exact date a couple weeks prior to 19 that, even before we knew Mr. Kohberger's name.

20 2. Help me understand what parts were 21 added after you knew Mr. Kohberger's name.

22 A. Well, to walk down the line best I can, 23 so obviously there's the initial component, which is 24 the crime scene, the testimony from the roommates.

25 Then after that it shifts to I believe the first 20

1 A. Correct.

2 2. What's their recommendation to you?

3 A. Their recommendation, to my memory, to 4 my recall, was that they had several individuals that 5 had the potential to be of interest in this 6 investigation. They asked us if to further their 7 family tree building, if we could be in contact with 8 individuals and see if they were willing to contribute 9 information into the databases that they were using in 10 order to further the family tree building and further 11 the geological work.

12 2. And we're in a closed setting here, so 13 I'm going to ask you to give me the last name.

14 A. I don't recall the last name, I'm 15 sorry.

16 2. Was it your understanding that these 17 were four brothers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Ω. Okay. What did you do in relationship 20 to these four brothers?

21 A. So we did some cursory work, just 22 looking in publicly accessible information, literally 23 Google searches and things of that nature.

24 What our approach was is we didn't want 25 to be approaching people, especially